If the definition of woman becomes whoever says they are a woman then it is no longer a sex class. If natal women try to organize in that scenario they are being discriminatory and excluding trans women. People want to change the idea that women are a distinct sex class.
i like how the terfs in this case are just ammo to make the point that trans people should be denied their dignity
Why can't trans women be a part of the women class? They're women. Wtf that's just more dumb exclusionary bs
The terf point is worth raising because it is incorrect. Many people called terfs are not radical feminists. The radical feminists that are called that are welcoming to trans men because they are female, so they are not trans exclusionary.
disagree. Saying that transwomen aren’t women is a radical position, and it’s predicated on women’s liberation— in a mistaken aense
Even though this is complete nonsense, I'd love to see these radical feminists who have actually welcomed trans men. Does that actually even exist as anything other than an attempted talking point?
I feel like this happens to me way too much(shocker, I know). It's embarrassing. There are threads that not even a year ago I feel idiotic and completely different about my takes. This is one of them.
You aren’t wrong, I just don’t think you’re point is relevant. Policies aimed at justice have short term negative trade offs that we have to endure. I live in an incredibly liberal neighborhood in LA that is currently experiencing a very real increase in violence because we’ve ended very unjust policies regarding who is incarcerated, not for any reason other than the pandemic. And now everyone in the neighborhood is pissed because quality of life is down. If you’re point is fairness has a cost, I’m with you 100%, but also being fair and kind will have real consequences that might suck to the very people that have benefited from these unjust systems in the first place. Of course men are generally better at macro motor skills than women, to your point it’s a biological fact, but that doesn’t mean we should or have to accept the negative externalities of that same reality. *If this doesn’t make sense, it’s St Patrick’s day and I’m working from home*
The terf position is equivalent to black activists in the 20th century who argued for radical separatism and best put to bed by Dick Fraser
I definitely understand the instinct to feel shame about a thing like that but I promise you it is objectively good and you should feel pride about it. Feels counter-intuitive but it's true.
I see. We won't be able to even agree on terms. I guess your thinking is similar to Chase Strangio on this? That sex and gender are basically the same thing and are simply constructs and nothing is real so what's the big deal. In my view, saying that peoples inner conceptions of themselves trumps material reality is the radical position and puts women in a number of bad positions. From what I've gathered the terfs think biological sex is real and therefore would gladly welcome trans men in their groups although obviously politics are tough these days. And of course, many transwomen qualify as terfs too
It's shame for the take but it's the ignorance that gets me most. There's no reason for it. I also have to work on being more sensitive and listening, but actually listening. I've been working hard on being less of a piece of shit for awhile now. Feels like I haven't gotten very far but I appreciate the words.
Sex is not a construct but gender is. Sex is purely biology. When you get into societal organization of classes of people now you're talking gender. I don't know much about terfs other than JK Rowling apparently is one but they seem to be bigoted exclusionaries who have found a way to rationalize their bigotry. You should not allow them to do so.
Nah. As I've mentioned before in this thread, the trans activism movement is really without precedent as far as I can see. I can't think of anything that parallels to a small group of people claiming opposite sex status on the basis of well, whatever. Self I'd is all that's required. Trans people definitely have some civil rights claims and should get plenty of support, but I don't see why their or anyone's self-conception should be enshrined in law
for me the single most important adult skill you can develop is admitting you are wrong and quickly moving on, no use dwelling on how dumb you were in the past. Of course you are dumb! You are a sentient being trying to understand the entire scope of reality! How could all of us NOT be idiots?
I feel like I'm more plugged into societal and philosophical issues than most and I'm still a big dummy like all the time
no I’m saying you can’t conceptualize pure biology without introducing culture but no I will never endorse the terf take
Being willing to have your mind changed as you come across new information is an elite characteristic imo
We'll, this is the I interesting thing! That's been the general consensus right? People have been shamed all over this thread for conflating the two. But there is definitely a current of thought that sex is a construct too. The foremost legal voice in the trans movement in the us said it very bluntly about a week or so ago. Its hard to keep up! And I reject the bigot characterization of course. It's a great way to stiffle dissent but not engage with very real concerns. Sure there are bad folks on that side just as there are some horrible people on the trans activist side.
and you can’t do that if you’re not listening and paying attention. I know this is basic shit for most everyone but it’s taken me a very long time.
I suppose that depends if you think being right for the wrong reasons is the same as being wrong for the right reasons.
Can you source this for me? Interested to understand it. I just can't square a movement that aims to exclude like by definition as being about anything but bigotry. All the stuff you've talked about with regards to women's rights historically doesn't seem like it should be impacted negatively by inclusion of trans women. It feels like more hiding the ball to me. Like I said though I don't know much about the movement I just know Rowling says some toxic shit on Twitter
Sorry didn't realize we were being honest. I've read that a few times, I honestly don't remember exactly where. Lots of the feminist and gender critical posters on twitter link to articles and editorials on random blogs and small sites. It also makes complete sense. These are people who think that their oppression stems from biology (they are right) and biological women are who they consider their group.
Sex is not binary is not the same as saying sex is a societal construct. Intersex people do exist. If trans or intersex people wish to identify as a specific gender there are interventions that can happen to alter the at birth sex conditions to be more like what the individual wants. We have advanced medical technology and understanding to that point. Birth sex does not have to be as defining many would like it to be.
The oppression isn’t from biology. Their oppression is due to flawed adherence to tradition and shitty reasoning by society. Saying their oppression is due to biology justifies that oppression. Trans women are oppressed too.
1. Strangio wasn't just saying sex is not binary, he was saying sex and gender are interchangeable. Yes, people do not have to live according to stereotypes of their birth sex or anything else. I'm totally for gender nonconformity or nonconformity of any sort. 2. Disagree with all but the last sentence. If women were bigger and stronger than men and men had to menstruate and give birth and worry about getting killed and raped by their more aggressive counterparts, everything is different.
Some of your are either psychopathic beyond comprehension about something as trivial as sports or you're hiding your actual grievance behind that argument. There's really only two options here
The other thing that I can't reconcile is that if you take the view about birth genitals being the determinative factor, then it requires a truly horrifying test to determine who is capable of playing. Like, if there's a dispute, you have to be in favor of a system which requires a test of the genitals of school children, or if they have the proper genitals, a test to determine if a sex change has taken place. You should be put in jail if you require a human being to go through that, let alone a child.
This was the problem with bathroom bills that were all the rage 5-6 years ago. How do you ever enforce it?
ITS NOT MY JOB TO EDUCATE YOU jk I actually did look but it was pretty impossible to find amongst the usual vox-like claptrap on the subject. I did find a Sophie Allen from Keele U in the uk who makes a reference to this: And most “most radical feminists who are apparently described” by the term TERF are inclusive of trans men, and so are not “trans-exclusionary” anyway, she said. So is this more theoretical talking point than reality? Not sure, would be interested to know details. Women living as men has certainly been a fixture in the lesbian community for a long time, I wonder what the trans rights movement wrought in those situations.
Trans women are raped too, and defining women by their ability to get pregnant and have children is incredibly harmful to many women. It’s reductive and offensive. Again. Women are NOT oppressed due to their biology. They are oppressed due to our society’s general shittiness. Saying they are oppressed due to their biology is saying the oppression can never be stopped. That’s just plain wrong. The oppression can be stopped. Without even doing anything to change human biology.
Your clearly in depth interest in the subject but inability to list like, a half dozen people, who share your views or who you find interesting intellectuals on the topic just makes me think you're lying if we're being honest. Where are you finding this information? Websites? Imo you know the who I'm asking for, it'll just be a little more direct than you try to present yourself so you think it'll be counter productive.
Sorry we just disagree on this. The biology is the root of it all. And it's bizarre to say this means the oppression can never be stopped. Much of human history is people trying to order things so that the the strong, violent people don't get all the stuff and cause mayhem all the time. Like why women started to get some rights, protections and set asides in more recent history
Because saying they are oppressed due to biology places the cause on the biology. Literally. That’s what that sentence structure does. That isn’t science - it’s English. And you’re free to disagree but you should also know that you don’t have a strong enough understanding of human biology to make the claims you are making.
The guys who play coed soccer and then can't handle being schooled by women are just the worst. There are way too many of them as well.