What is your opinion on transgendered persons competing in the Olympics?

This is what a strawman actually looks like fwiw

 

What is the actual, measurable impact of this unfairness? How does it relate to the flip side of the coin?

 

You being right about physical advantages wouldn’t have much of an effect on the topic. Also, you weren’t right:

 

Maybe you should cite them instead of speaking for and labeling them.

 

You share plenty on here to show us who you are...a selfish man with some backwards views of the world. And one hell of a victim complex.

 

Of course not but that group of developing boys are still bigger, stronger and faster than the women’s team so it’s not hard to put two and two together.

Has nothing to do with me thinking they deserve less money or they are lesser people.

 

It is striking to me how, over the past 400 years of this country, the target has changed (sometimes!), but the arguments and tactics are absolutely the same when folks want to exclude people we perceive as others. Testosterone levels, physiology, alleged intelligence, physical stature, skull size, etc etc etc.

We continue to use pseudoscience and fear to emphasize preconceived biases to absolutely ruin the lives of other human beings, until society realizes decades and decades later that it was all bullshit and says “whoops! Sorry. No harm no foul!”

 

Is this a Freudian slip or just poor English? Surely you don't believe what you've just stated here...

 

I’m not selfish at all. How? You’re unbelievable. I also don’t have a victim complex because in the real world I don’t blame everyone for my problems. I take personal accountability for me and my family and am a good father, husband, friend and boss.

I don’t need some self righteous guy on the Internet telling me who I am. I would never pretend to tell you who you are. That’s being ignorant.

 

I don't give a rats ass about the outcome of an overwhelming majority of sporting events. So I damn sure don't think it's worth attaching further social stigma to a group of people over something that doesn't matter at all.

 

Poor wording. I meant he’s wrong implying I believe women are lesser people or deserve lesser pay.

 

I can only go off of what you share here. For your family's and employees' sake, I hope this is all true and that your board persona is made-up.

 

For the record, I was being a dick on this one.

I don't think you're a bad person, just ignorant and not at all curious or willing to learn or see the world through any eyes outside of your home or immediate circle. Unfortunately (and fortunately), we live in a highly-connected world in which we all have impacts, and are impacted by others, far beyond our inner circle. Your family lives in that world, too.

 

Once again, it’s you lacking empathy. Empathy doesn’t just extend to your family and immediate friends. Hopefully one day you see the light and become less ignorant.

 

What’s my board persona? No offense the main board knows very little unlike the private team board. We disagree on policies but I don’t think any less of you. I’m one of the nicest people you’d meet in real life.

I just don’t like being pigeoned hole as I’m sure you don’t.

Let’s call a truce and I will just leave the thread.

 

I'm good with being pigeon holed because I'm not ashamed of my views. If my views end up with me being pigeon holed, so be it.

You come across as a very myopic guy. Hey, if that works for you, so be it. I've had lots of back and forths with Saul and with Merica over the years because it was quite clear they were intelligent, but teetering on the edge of some pretty abhorrent stuff. I think some people can change and learn. Some can't. Those who can, or at least seem open to genuine dialogue, are worth engaging in my experience. Some change, some go off a cliff. I do learn from these interactions and continue to adapt my understanding and view of the world surrounding me. I also readily admit that I go a bit too hard in the paint from time to time. Likely a misplaced sense of being able to shock someone into seeing an issue in a different light. Foolish on my part and often ends up coming across as cruel and personal. I apologize for that.

I do hope you and yours are well.

P.S. no need to leave threads.

 

Saw this thread pop up again and looked in. Im gonna be honest, I saw how I had voted two years ago when the poll was created and it didn’t make me feel good. I’m not changing it, purely as a reminder that I used to be a shithead and how far my views have changed in such a short time. I don’t know the right answer, but I know separate but equal isn’t it.

 

If you don't cringe at things you used to believe it means you aren't growing as a person

 

I voted lechnerd is fat and I stand by it

 

The mechanisms for solving this “problem” already exists. There are no “men’s” leagues they are just open competition, every other league has an eligibility requirement. Some of those are based on truly objective criteria like age or weight, but beyond that the eligibility is determined by the participant pool of athletes themselves. I would bet most women support trans athletes so the problem solves itself.

also, if you haven’t ever interacted with trans people, so many of them are physically and psychologically in shambles because of both social bigotry and the fact that realizing that your gender and sex don’t align must be incredibly traumatizing on its own. That’s not a great mix to become some incredible Olympian. Transitioning is not a walk in the park either mentally or physiologically.

there is no evidence of anyone taking advantage of the “loopholes,” but even if someone did, you could account for that pretty easily by imposing an either/or eligibility requirement, you qualify for a woman’s league if you were female at birth OR you meet a testosterone threshold. And even then you’d only do this at the absolute highest levels.

either way the leading principle should really be empathy and kindness.

 

Get rid of gender specific athletics. Let women play in the nfl and nba. No more women’s leagues. All the same. If everyone is to be viewed as equal, then let women try and tackle Derrick Henry etc. the problem will solve itself.

Inequality is natural. I’m a man just like any other nfl player. I don’t play in the nfl because I’m a man, woman, trans, whatever... I don’t play because trying to compare myself to that of an elite athlete is just wrong. If a woman or trans gender person can compete at the elite level.... let them all play together.

 

You may not care, but don’t you think the players care? Don’t you think it matters to them?

 

This seems like an unnecessary overreaction. Keep literally everything exactly the same as it is, except that we let transgender athletes compete against their preferred gender. It’s actually already happening in a lot of places with minimal issues.

 

I have fun

 

it’s not an overreaction as much an admittance of reality. Let everything be completely merit based with no consideration as to anyone’s plumbing. It removes the gender argument from the table.

 

it has everything to do with that, because that’s why that story became a fixture of socially conservative talking points.

 

What is the reality?

Why can’t reality be transgender students competing against their genders and all else is the same? It already is reality in a lot of places.

 

>I stand for fairness in sports
>invokes argument designed to justify paying women less to do the same job with more success

 

I had totally forgotten that was why that story ever hit any kind of public awareness.

 

It’s a perfect example of the way weird talking points percolate through the right wing of this country and get repeated forever. It showed up and now it’s just part of any sports convo about sexes.

 

yea, somehow I knew immediately that it was true that the USWNT had lost to a men’s youth club team in a meaningless scrimmage but I can’t remember the specific results of playoff games of teams I follow religiously.

 

I assume he ignored me because I've asked him directly at least twice what the fuck point he thinks he's making when he brings it up and he hasn't said shit

 

Also the context in which he brought it up is telling. The kind of guy who thinks they’re naturally better at sports than women is exactly who I’m talking about. I’ve watched them try to stomp my friend’s ankles to pulp because she has put three goals in and is clearly a much better soccer player than they are

 

Maybe I’m too charitable, but I don’t think that’s bad faith, I think it’s just a bad framework for understanding reality. That kind of shit is hard to break from.

 

Okay chief. Thanks for telling me what I was thinking.

 

Norhing I said has anything to do with your thought process. I don’t care what you think. I’m saying that when you invoke a bogeyman that was created to justify suppressing their wages, you’re reproducing the argument.

 

I ignored you because it’s tough to respond to everyone. Wasn’t intentional.

My point was that men by nature are bigger, stronger and faster and it’s unfair to a lot of women for them to compete against one another athletically. It’s why we have separate teams and leagues for men and women. In sports like track and field, wrestling and weight lifting you can see why it could be a disadvantage to girls when a boy or man transitions and are much mature physically.

My bringing up the women’s soccer had nothing to do with being a part of some conservative think tank. I dont associate everything in a political way. It’s just an example of where you can take the best women’s team on the planet and just due to size and athleticism they were at a disadvantage.

I don’t really understand why it’s so hard to comprehend.

 

The Venn Diagram of people who are against trans-athletes competing with women and people who support parents who hold back their children in school so they can physically mature and thus hold a physical advantage over their peers has to be nearly perfect circle.

 

This is rich considering how often you fail to comprehend what people are trying to say to you. Like you're currently doing it with Mickey, for example

 

you don’t think it’s political but literally only conservatives bring that up

 

Don’t we have men’s and women’s sports because women were not permitted/limited to participate in sports until recent times?

I don’t think it has anything to do with competition

 

Yeah, "terfs" is the inapt term that is often given to people who don't prioritize gender identity over sex.

The rebuttle to the rebuttle is that sex is of course not merely symbolic but a material reality that is hugely consequential. The disadvantaged group that is female humanity is helped by having the ability to organize and create their own spaces and it would not be good to define them out of existence.

 

what a bizarre framing. Define them out of existence? This is about women.

Do you think trans doesn’t involve sex?

 

ok so you're using it as support for the argument that men are bigger stronger and faster.
I mean I think it's pretty well established that in general that is the case, so again, there's no point in bringing that anecdote into the discussion here. It adds nothing. Nobody has challenged the idea that men are generally bigger stronger and faster, such that you'd need to provide that evidence.

Having said that, it's also an assumption on your part that the team lost because it was less athletically gifted in the first place.

 

Also lol at calling an acronym that literally defines their position— trans exclusionary radical feminists— inapt

i guess it’s a troll since he did the whole you know women and fairer sex bits. Fuck off with the bad faith.

 

i voted for option 2 two years ago but after listening to a lot of ben shapiro (as a joke) i have changed my vote to we must not let any woman whatsoever play sports