Playing the Role of Spoiler for Four More Years - Conservatives/Republicans ITT

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by Moxin24, Mar 25, 2011.

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  1. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    So just disregard every statement I make and try and change the argument. Got some straw coming out your ass.
  2. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

  3. Can I Spliff it

    Can I Spliff it Electromagnetic with a sweet aesthetic

  4. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    What statement, that Palin sucks? I bet 99% of Republicans ITT agree.
    I'm simply asking if Biden is or is not a good choice for VP?
  5. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    What statement, that Palin sucks? I bet 99% of Republicans ITT agree.
    I'm simply asking if Biden is or is not a good choice for VP?
  6. The Banks

    The Banks TMB's Alaskan

    Biden was a bad choice, Palin however, was far worse

    (and this is coming from an Alaskan).

    She did well in her time as governor (up until getting nominated), but Biden>>Palin as far as VP nominees go
  7. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    My point was most Republicans, at least here, are happy to admit that. I'm still waiting for a Democrat to tell me Biden is a bad choice.
  8. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    They won didn't they?

    I don't know enough about him or past VP's to be able to compare qualifications. I barely paid attention to the 2008 election since I was knee deep in undergrad.
  9. ths

    ths so far gone Staff Member

    Because this thread has turned into the default political discussion thread for decently intelligent discussion. Being that, to have a productive intelligent discourse all sources and opinions should be shared and discussed. Whether the name of the thread says "conservative" or "liberal" is irrelevant. I am interested in discussing all sides of every issue with people sharing convictions that are both similar and distinct from my own, and fortunately this thread has turned into an avenue for that discussion.

    ...sorry for hijacking?
  10. jwpearl

    jwpearl I shall fetch a rug

    Vice President is a useless, figurehead office. People make way too big a deal about it.
  11. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Until that person has to become President :awesomeface:
    Talking Head likes this.
  12. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Speaking of VPs. I would love to see any objective analysis ranking VPs. There are plenty that rank President's but I've never seen anything that looks at the VPs.
  13. jwpearl

    jwpearl I shall fetch a rug

    True. I just don't get the crap about how picking a VP who 'balances your ticket' matters. Who gives a fuck what the VP thinks or has done? He doesn't get to do jack shit, unless the president plans on dying.

    1. Dan Quail
    2. Dan Quail
    3. Dylan
    4. ????
    5. Profit
  14. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Yeah the biggest thing the public looks at is "could I stomach this person being President?" Depending on who the actual candidate is, that desire may be more or less prevalent in the actual voter metric for picking their vote.

    Ole Danny boy has to be high up there for sure. In the post WWII era, I'm not sure anyone is worse than Spiro Agnew.
  15. ths

    ths so far gone Staff Member

    Something I don't understand about the healthcare bill:

    It is my understanding that people will not have to purchase the government healthcare plans if they currently use healthcare provisions via their employer. No one is being absolutely forced to purchase their healthcare through the government. If employers choose to not provide healthcare coverage to their employees, they are forced to pay a penalty of $2k per year per employee. So what is going to stop employers from paying the penalty if the $2k penalty is a cheaper alternative than providing healthcare through that firm and just dumping their employees onto government mandated healthcare? Am I missing something?

    I understand that the simple answer for this is if firms cease to provide healthcare to their employees, opting to pay the $2k fine instead, then employees would leave the firm. However, what if this were to start happening in widespread fashion? From a purely business perspective, I cannot see why businesses would not dump their employee healthcare plans and pay the penalty if that penalty is less than the cost of providing healthcare.
  16. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    This is one of the biggest fears by those on the right. Some on the left who wanted pure Government run health care and to have private insurance banned across the board see this as a way to get that wish by default over time. The problem is the program as its currently written will become a financial nightmare if there is a widespread abandonment of providing insurance by companies and a large portion of the public has to move into the government coffers. There is a lot of unknowns with this scenario as well since the bill isn't designed, theoretically, to be an all for one and one for all, heath care bill.
  17. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Another problem with the entire health care bill discussion is there are two main questions in the public: (a) provide universal access and (b) lower costs for everyone. The health care bill that was passed basically does A but really doesn't do much for B even though it was pitched to do both. The key thing and ths question hits at it above is what happens when health care costs continue to rise, what then? Assuming the bill stays constitutional does that mean we will begin to see companies start making the economic decision "we can pay $X in fines which is X% cheaper than providing health care for our employees?"

    If you look at public polling on the health care issues, the question of lowering prices always has a higher percentage of support than the providing universal access question.
  18. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

  19. ths

    ths so far gone Staff Member

    I guess the only saving grace I could see is that if people's healthcare provisions are dumped by their employers then they would find employment elsewhere. For the same reasons salary keeps people working at specific places, if one company opted to drop all healthcare and just pay the fines then no one would want to work there. But simply quitting your job and finding a new one isn't as simple as some are making it sound for many people.
  20. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    I may be dumb here, but what is making employers pay for healthcare now?
  21. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Nothing.

    Its a benefit that is still more or less cost effective for them to pay for so they can promote themselves as a "better place to work" compared to other companies.
  22. ths

    ths so far gone Staff Member

    Demand
  23. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    So there is no incentive for them to stop covering it unless health care costs sky rocket (which they've already done and companies are already dropping health insurance).

    I don't trust anyone's numbers about this healthcare bill anyways, it's a giant crapshoot to what is going to happen. You can't really calculate the potential savings of preventative care and people not going to the emergency room at the same rate. It's also difficult to calculate the cost of insuring people who have pre-existing conditions.

    I think it more rests on do you believe everyone has the right to healthcare vs not.

    The article I read about the lady being kicked out of a hospital and sent to jail, because she felt she didn't receive adequate care for her leg pains and proceeding to die isn't a good look for the medical field right now in how it cares for people on Medicaid.
  24. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    For me the debate on the health care bill beings and ends with its constitutionality. No one actually knows whether it increase or lower costs, or if its just one step on the road to a single payer system.

    What I do find astounding is that liberals would support legislation that compelled people to purchase a product. When I was growing up liberals were screaming about individual rights and big brother running their lives. They have always wanted to push the burden onto the rich, but the individual mandate doesn't do that. The prime candidates for people most affected by the mandate are healthy college grads ages 22-30. People who have not settled into a career, but do not qualify financially for a government program.
    This doesn't help the poor and downtrodden. It doesn't force the rich to foot the bill. It forces young, healthy people to buy something that they've made the choice (or risk) to go without. Its really surprising to me that so many young liberals are ok with, especially considering their love for slippery slope arguments.
  25. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Medicare & Medicaid aren't getting any better as programs since the government continues to not adequately fund those programs and more and more hospitals are having to eat the costs. Quite a few hospitals around the country have already started not accepting patients who don't have other forms of payment (besides Medicare/Medicaid) and the trend isn't reversing itself. One of the budget gimmicks the Dems used in the health care bill to make it appear cheaper was doing nothing to address the Medicare/Medicaid gap. They planned to pass a separate bill for that since it was going to raise the overall costs significantly. To my knowledge, they haven't (and now the GOP in the House) haven't fixed this problem.

    My wife has spent some time in the Medicare/Medicaid billing side of thing in both hospitals and clinics and for some things the government only reimburses .30 for every $1. That adds up when you're look at how much can be racked up by some patients.

    You're correct though in your point of access. Many, mostly those who are from the left side of the discussion, focus solely on access and that the government should give health insurance to everyone no matter what the costs are in the long run. That argument certainly plays well from the emotional side but it ignores any of the fiscal responsibility. Regardless, neither side is willing to make legitimate moves to actually address the fiscal side of the problem.
    Talking Head likes this.
  26. Talking Head

    Talking Head The Bag Man.

    People need to stop eating so fucking much and going to the emergency room any time they have a tummy ache, that would do a lot to stem the fucking problems.

    Yet we continue to cut funding from schools who subsequently get rid of sports and PE. :facepalm:

    Our best long term fix for this problem is to create a healthier country altogether.
  27. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    Yeah, therapists get laughable reimbursement rates. That's why all the good therapists don't take insurance and people bill by themselves (there's typically a gap between what the therapist charges and insurance covers).
  28. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    This is absolutely true but damn near impossible to do.

    We eat shitty meals on the go constantly and we work ridiculous hours. Its one of the big reasons that it is really hard to do a straight comparison of Canada, UK or some of the other European countries that have some form of government run health care because our lifestyles are so much different than theirs. Its also why it works in something like the US Military because everyone is compelled to have a similar "lifestyle."
  29. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    I was talking to my wife a few months ago and the hospitals she had been talking to in the region were all figuring out what they could do if the government didn't start reimbursing at better levels. None of them want to start rejecting patients on Medicare/Medicaid but their financial situations aren't the best at this point in time.

    All in all, I'm really glad I don't work in the health care industry.
  30. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    I wish the American work week was like the European countries/Canada/etc.

    Working less/more recreation goes hand in hand with eating right/exercising.
  31. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    When I was stationed in Germany and working with the NATO folks a lot more often, they use to laugh at the Americans constantly because we worked constantly and took 1 hour lunches (occasionally 1.5 if you were working out) and didn't take the same type of vacations that our European counterparts take. I always hated that shit and wanted to take 14 coffee breaks a day while taking 2 hour lunches. Oh and if its Friday afternoon forget seeing them do work. :laugh:
  32. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    :laugh: I have zero faith that the obesity problem in this country would be cured, or significantly helped, by people having more recreation time.
    Talking Head likes this.
  33. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    A big chunk of people eat shit, myself included at times, because I have zero time. Ability to work out is also greatly curtailed when super busy.

    I'm not saying it'd be cured, or a giant help, but it'd definitely be a benefit.
  34. Talking Head

    Talking Head The Bag Man.

    No doubt. That said, it is hard as fuck to find any time to work out when you go to work at 8, leave at 6, then try to cook dinner before going to bed since it's a lot healthier.
  35. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    Yeah, spend twenty minutes abroad besides just vacationing and Europeans will laugh at how obsessed Americans are with work.
  36. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    The food and the gym are secondary when compared to portion size. People stayed relatively fit for years before the gym because a thing, and they ate plenty of red meat and fatty deserts. Its the size of portions we eat, coupled with all the other things, that have made us fat. Also the lack of social stigma has really not helped. When I was in elementary school every class had "the fat kid", now half the fucking class is "the fat kid". Everyone's a winner and no one gets judged and that's what you get, a bunch of fucking fatties.
  37. Talking Head

    Talking Head The Bag Man.

    That said, there's a reason we are king of the mountain.

    Not sure it's worth it, but it's true.
    Moxin24 likes this.
  38. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Yeah there is a reason for our success. There are some drawbacks as well.
  39. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    I'm quite proud of the American work ethic compared to Europeans. Fucking fags rioting in the streets over a 36 hour work week.
  40. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Ok, I rarely post anything political to my personal Facebook page and I typically direct people to my website's Facebook page for all political discussions. However, I've "liked" a bunch of political sites so I can read a variety of opinions as I scan through my Facebook feed. From time to time, I have to respond when I find something that is just so fucking dumb that it makes my head :blowup:

    Case in point:

    • Jeannie Prather ‎---has anyone wondered how Romney's gonna comply with Constitutional requirement because his father was born in Mexico, that's a disqualifier nobody's mentioned, to my knowledge---anyone know more?
      16 minutes ago·

      Like


    • Bryan Speer ‎@Jeannie - Romney was born in Detroit Michigan and under Section 1 of the 14th Amendment that makes him a US citizen. It doesn't matter where his dad was born.​
      6 minutes ago·

      Like
  41. Talking Head

    Talking Head The Bag Man.

    I'd say it has way more to do with the accessibility of food quickly than portion sizes. Cooking dinner used to be a big fucking part of the day, would take a lot of time, and none of the food would go to waste. If someone missed dinner, you might not eat til breakfast. (This is way before any of our time, except maybe ouduck)

    Now there is just constant access to food in no time at all. You want a huge pile of noodles at midnight? You can either buy some for $5 or you can microwave some and both will take less than five minutes, and will probably be cheaper than if you tried to cook them yourself.

    I agree with the stigmatizing of fat people. I can't imagine how much more difficult it is for some than others to stay trim, but acting like people shouldn't desire to be healthy and accept their weight problem is a terrible ideal to perpetuate.
  42. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    Tons of research out there showing quality of work nose dives when working excessive hours to the point of being detrimental. Too lazy to go find it.
  43. Talking Head

    Talking Head The Bag Man.

    My wife runs a bridesmaids dress business and our tailor is Kenyan. Holy shit, it takes an hour and a half of talking with his entire family just to drop off a couple of patterns. I understand getting to know the people you work with, but time is valuable. I don't think other cultures share our "let's get this shit done" mentality and it's a reason we've been at the top for so long.
  44. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    Well if you want to find an area on which social conservatives are on point, its the family dinner. The dramatic increase in single parent homes and working mothers contributes greatly to the need for quick, unhealthy meals. SANTORUM 2012!
    Talking Head likes this.
  45. hogfan

    hogfan My beard is better than your beard

    Oh I don't doubt it at all. I can speak to it first hand when I was working 90+ hour weeks while deployed.
  46. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    The other thing is the massive decrease in people working jobs that involve physical activity.

    Not sure that stigmatizing is the best option, that's worked so well for poor people. Something needs to happen though, probably a ton of small changes that take a long time to happen. Society has been slow to adapt to the current trends in work/life/etc.
  47. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    If that's true it still doesn't speak to my point. There is something wrong with your culture when you riot over a 36 hour work week.
  48. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    The difference is stigmatizing poor people doesn't work because poor people don't spend their days with rich or middle class people. Poor people work with other poor people, live around other poor people and associate around other poor people.
    Fat people live among us.
    Talking Head likes this.
  49. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    Can't disagree with that.

    Just saying the downsides to the expected work ethic in this country are pretty huge when we no longer need people to work in factories for 18 hours at a time.
  50. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch The Job Is Never Finished

    :ohdear:

    Show Spoiler
    I laughed at that hard for some reason. Made me think of zombies.
    hogfan likes this.
  51. Moxin24

    Moxin24 A Basketball School Since 2007

    Well they are slow, marauding, hungry and smell bad. Might as fucking well be zombies.
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